History Pharisees or Essenes?

[Larry]

I'm Greatly fascinated with the History of are faith..

One thing that Ive come at a stand still is where do we come from?

Where are fore fathers from the Pharisees? Or the Essenes.

As I look at the way Yeshua talked about the Pharisees Never in a good light. Also their seems to be missing the Essenes in the Writings of the Apostles ..Im leaning on the side that we Netzarim are from the the Essenes and not the Pharisees.

I also believe that the reason for why many are believing that Yeshua way a Pharisee is so that they will feel closer to the Rabbinic community as we know they are direct decent of the Pharisees of Yeshua's Day.

As in todays Messianic community many would like to feel like they belong to something!

[2mwxxu8jktm9g]

From my studies, it seems to me that the Essenes were referred to as Pharisees originally but only later came to be separated.

 

When the NT thus refers to the Pharisees, it may not actually mean the Pharisees as we understand them today, but the Essenes.  We must acknowledge that the Essenes were not a consensus group either.  There were various divisions among the Essenes as well according to the Testimony of Josephus.

[Larry]

Humm interesting... I never heard that.  I'm looking at it from the Priest hood. that one was from the Zodok priesthood and the other not  and mostly took over Hellenistic .

[2mwxxu8jktm9g]

I found that the Orthodox Jews of today are so similar to Christians.  They teach that Gentiles do not have to keep the Torah.  I believe that the pagans Justin Martyr (just see Dialogue with Trypho) and certain Christian fathers were able to convince many of the Jews that the Torah didn't have to be kept by Gentiles, but they were unable to convince them that Yahushua was the Mashiyach.

[Larry]

right! I would agree with you.. but its so untrue... In the Torah as the Torah says if some ones wants to join Israel then they Join fully NO half way .

Anayahu ven Dawid said:

I found that the Orthodox Jews of today are so similar to Christians.  They teach that Gentiles do not have to keep the Torah.  I believe that the pagans Justin Martyr (just see Dialogue with Trypho) and certain Christian fathers were able to convince many of the Jews that the Torah didn't have to be kept by Gentiles, but they were unable to convince them that Yahushua was the Mashiyach.

[2mwxxu8jktm9g]

I agree.  Every creature is under the same laws of morality.  To suggest that God made laws just for the sake of making laws i regard as offensive and makes the Torah into a joke.

[2mwxxu8jktm9g]

Also, in the Book of Jubilees, so many commandments are explicitly given to all of the world.  For example, circumcision.  Abraham enjoins the obligation to circumcise to all his children, including Ishmael, and the obligation is also passed down to Esau as well according to that Book i regard as Scripture.  The laws of fruit trees are also enjoined upon all the nations by Enoch.  Clean versus unclean Animals and sacrificial laws were revealed to Noah for all.  The Feast of Weeks began with Noah for all to keep.  So many things about Torah have their origin in Gentile patriarchs and are enjoined upon all the nations.

[Larry]

Fully agree

Anayahu ven Dawid said:

Also, in the Book of Jubilees, so many commandments are explicitly given to all of the world.  For example, circumcision.  Abraham enjoins the obligation to circumcise to all his children, including Ishmael, and the obligation is also passed down to Esau as well according to that Book i regard as Scripture.  The laws of fruit trees are also enjoined upon all the nations by Enoch.  Clean versus unclean Animals and sacrificial laws were revealed to Noah for all.  The Feast of Weeks began with Noah for all to keep.  So many things about Torah have their origin in Gentile patriarchs and are enjoined upon all the nations.

[Larry]

I might agree with you but think it will make a big difference in how we work this out if Yeshua really didn't like the Pharisees meaning that the sons of them now still have the leaven that they had in his day. they still have today.. building a Netzari moment that is Strong and just does not join it self to the Orthodox today as they have the mega Oral Torah that the truth of the Matter is Yeshua Preached right ageist much of the madness they where doing 2000 years ago like hand watching and many of the Orthodox Netzari are starting to join themselves to this and that would not be good. If we give ourselves to the same man made rules that Yeshua talked about .

Luc Lefebvre said:

I think historical Netzarim come from a wide range of backgrounds and just like us today, they were called out to leave their religiosity (if they had any) and follow Mashiyach, the Ancient Path of Jeremiah 6:16. Any affiliation any of the Talmidim had would have been irrelevant once they were taught by and saw the miracles of Yeshua.